ppy/IAOA-SWAO-SIG-Launch_chat-transcript_unedited_20131125a.txt ------ Chat transcript from room: iaoa_20131125 2013-11-25 GMT-08:00 [PST] ------ [6:34] PeterYim: . = IAOA Semantic Web Applied Ontology (SWAO) SIG: Inaugural Meeting - Mon 2013-11-25 = Description: The purpose of this session is to begin to form a Semantic Web Applied Ontology Special Interest Group (SIG) in the International Association for Ontology and its Applications (IAOA): http://iaoa.org/. This SIG aims to fill the gap between the Semantic Web community and the IAOA community. Convener: Dr. LeoObrst (IAOA-EC; MITRE) Panelists / Briefings: * Professor MichaelGruninger (IAOA President, U of Toronto) - "IAOA Semantic Web and Applied Ontology SIG" * Professor PascalHitzler (Wright State U) - "Ontologies in a data-driven world: finding the middle ground" * Professor KrzysztofJanowicz (UC Santa Barbara) - "Please don't agree -- Introducing Descartes-Core" * Dr. LeoObrst (MITRE) - "Semantic Web Meets Applied Ontology: What Does it Mean?" * Professor TillMossakowski (U of Magdeburg, Germany) - "Ontologies for the Semantic Web, and vice versa" Logistics: * Refer to details on session page at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?IAOA_SWAO_ConferenceCall_2013_11_25 * (if you haven't already done so) please click on "settings" (top center) and morph from "anonymous" to your RealName * Mute control (phone keypad): *7 to un-mute ... *6 to mute * Attn: Skype users ... see: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?IAOA_SWAO_ConferenceCall_2013_11_25#nid414M ** you may connect to (the skypeID) "joinconference" whether or not it indicates that it is online (i.e. even if it says it is "offline," you should still be able to connect to it.) ** if you are using skype and the connection to "joinconference" is not holding up, try using (your favorite POTS or VoIP line, etc.) either your phone, skype-out or google-voice and call the US dial-in number: +1 (206) 402-0100 ... when prompted enter Conference ID: 141184# ** Can't find Skype Dial pad? *** for Windows Skype users: Can't find Skype Dial pad? ... it's under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad" *** for Linux Skype users: please stay with (or downgrade to) Skype version 2.x for now (as a Dial pad seems to be missing on Linux-based Skype v4.x for skype-calls.) . == Proceedings == . [6:52] anonymous morphed into ChristopherSpottiswoode [6:55] anonymous morphed into PaulBrandt [6:56] anonymous1 morphed into PatriceSeyed [6:59] anonymous1 morphed into ElieAbiLahoud [7:00] anonymous morphed into AleksandraSojic [7:01] anonymous morphed into LeoraMorgenstern [7:02] anonymous morphed into Krzysztof Janowicz [7:02] anonymous1 morphed into Jonathan Bona [7:02] anonymous morphed into Agnieszka Lawrynowicz [7:03] anonymous2 morphed into OrisFriesen [7:03] anonymous morphed into AnnRacuyaRobbins [7:03] Jonathan Bona morphed into JonathanBona [7:03] Pascal Hitzler1: I'm having trouble dialing in [7:03] Agnieszka Lawrynowicz morphed into AgnieszkaLawrynowicz [7:03] Pascal Hitzler1: is the skype chat "joinconference" online? [7:04] Krzysztof Janowicz: Peter: IMHO, the 'for Linux Skype users:' message is no longer true [7:04] PeterYim: @Pascal: yes ... just connect to it, even if it doesn't show that it is "online" [7:04] Pascal Hitzler1: I dialed in via phone number that worked [7:05] anonymous morphed into AndreaWesterinen [7:06] anonymous morphed into TorstenHahmann [7:06] FrankLoebe: @Peter: I hear Leo quite well, just like I hear you. [7:07] anonymous morphed into DennisPierson [7:08] PeterYim: == LeoOrbst starts the session - see slides under: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?IAOA_SWAO_ConferenceCall_2013_11_25#nid4146 [7:09] List of members: AgnieszkaLawrynowicz, AleksandraSojic, AndreaWesterinen, AnnRacuyaRobbins, ChristopherSpottiswoode, dennis wisnosky, DennisPierson, ElieAbiLahoud, FabianNeuhaus, FrancescaQuattri1, FrankLoebe, Harold Boley, JonathanBona, Krzysztof Janowicz, LeoObrst, LeoraMorgenstern, MichaelGruninger, MikeBennett, NaicongLi, OliverKutz, OnnoPaap, OrisFriesen, Pascal Hitzler1, PatriceSeyed, PaulBrandt, PeterYim, TaraAthan, TillMossakowski, ToddSchneider, TorstenHahmann, vnc2 [7:11] anonymous morphed into Tomasz Adamusiak [7:12] PeterYim: == MichaelGruninger presenting ... [7:20] MichaelGruninger: I will update the slide deck (after this session) and insert the missing slides after #2 that describe key current IAOA activities and the way we structure them (in our committees and SIGs) [7:25] PeterYim: == PascalHitzler presenting ... [7:29] Harold Boley: "micro-ontologies" seem related to "micro-theories" in Cyc. [7:30] Krzysztof Janowicz: it is [7:30] Krzysztof Janowicz: we took it from Guha's work [7:30] MikeBennett: Pascal's point has important implications for ontology based standards - the contexts need to be dealt with in the standards, in a way that designers of stand-alone ontology applications don't need to grapple with. [7:33] ElieAbiLahoud: @MikeBennett, if we use ontologies to model possible contexts, aren't we just transposing the issues Pascal is discussing? ... [7:34] MikeBennett: Yes. As distinct to ignoring them and trying to apply the approach which works in stand-alone ontology applications, to the development of the standards. [7:36] FrancescaQuattri1: what do we (still) need in ontology? This little resembles the discussion that we had at the latest ER2013 conference with John Mylopoulos, when he was proposing his approach to conceptual modeling. one thing is clear: more sensitivity and background knowledge in natural language (jargons, genres, synonyms...) [7:39] MichaelGruninger: Work in ontology repositories emphasizes relationships between ontologies, identifying common patterns, and sharable sub-ontologies. I think Till will talk about this as well. [7:41] anonymous morphed into BruceBray [7:42] MikeBennett: Can patterns be thought of as representing archetypical representations of high level, extensible atomic concepts? [7:42] PeterYim: == KrzysztofJanowicz presenting ... [7:45] Pascal Hitzler1: @MikeBennett: I'm not sure they necessarily need to be high-level. It seems to me that we need them at all levels, both high-level conceptual, abstract hings (events, processes, trajectories), but also more concrete content/vocabulary, possibly as refinements of higher-level abstractions. [7:45] ToddSchneider: Mike, yes. But which/what concepts (do the patterns represent)? [7:46] MikeBennett: @Pascal thanks. I'm thinking of concepts like Transaction, Contract etc.; if one can identify the fundamental properties that always apply to contracts, then anything which is a contract extends this within the same pattern. [7:47] MikeBennett: @Todd the "simplest kind of thing" for that kind of concept. The thing which, if one removed any one property, it would no longer be one of that kind of thing (e.g. an agreement without two parties isn't an agreement, it's a pledge). [7:47] Pascal Hitzler1: @Mike: that sounds right to me. From my current perspective, one of the decisive things about patterns is that they only incorporate ontological committments which are widely shareable. [7:48] LeoObrst: @all: I encourage everyone to also comment in the chat about your thoughts for the way forward for this SWAO SIG, and how you might contribute/volunteer. Also what you would like to see the SIG accomplish. And next steps. [7:49] anonymous morphed into Kathy Ellis [7:51] MikeBennett: @Pascal I think that's realistically achievable for business-related terms since many of these are ultimately grounded in law, contract, accounting and the like. [7:52] ToddSchneider: Leo, one item/issue that this SIG could help with is promoting common terminology (and its interpretation). [7:58] Pascal Hitzler1: @Mike: One key consideration when making a pattern is that of the "scope". How much do we want to include? There's a trade-off here of course, the wider the scope the less you can often say. My feeling is that it's easier to find a wide scope e.g. in contexts where established shared notions already exist. Really understanding this "scope" aspect is imo one of the things which need to be investigated. [7:58] AndreaWesterinen: Is the issue to think more broadly about ontologies than just the concepts and relationships, but the formalisms and patterns as well ... and then provide a way to capture and curate these patterns? Maybe this is more about what emerges than about what we think should emerge. [7:59] AndreaWesterinen: Initially what "emerges" is probably strictly a manual analysis... [7:59] MikeBennett: @Pascal agreed. [8:00] Pascal Hitzler1: I would argue that every well-made ontology is essentially a composition of patterns. Regretfully, though, the patterns are "lost" in the ontology. We could do so much more if we had the patterns explicitly available. [8:00] AndreaWesterinen: @Pascal That is the key and what I was trying to say. [8:01] AndreaWesterinen: @Pascal If even a small set of "us" (ontologists) started to do this, it would be valuable. [8:01] Pascal Hitzler1: And by the way, also each Linked Dataset is essentially a collection of information snippets which are represented using subgraphs which correspond to some types of patterns. So the patterns are there as well, but again, they are only implicit, and a lot of the trouble with reusing linked data is that the patterns are not exposed explicitly. [8:02] Pascal Hitzler1: @Andrea: agreed. In our GeoVoCamps (where we make patterns), for example, it's very important to have contributors who know about the deeper modeling issues - just like it is important to have domain experts, application-oriented persons, and some who understand the tricky logical aspects. [8:03] AndreaWesterinen: It may be obvious, but the patterns that one person sees may be different than what was originally designed. That would highlight the need to publish and curate. [8:04] Pascal Hitzler1: @Andrea: YES! [8:06] MikeBennett: One challenge we have found with the above, is that if you have a well formed ontology with good use of restrictions, this is almost impossible to represent to the business stakeholders in a meaningful way. A more "naive" use of e.g. OWL without these features, is more consumable to business but doesn't correspond one to one with the well formed ontology. Need to think of ways to alias the more formal ontology patterns in terms of their implications for business meaning in a way that business folks can follow. An ontology is of limited use if the business haven't been able to validate it as representing what they know. [8:08] AndreaWesterinen: @Mike Agreed. I have struggled with that for some time. I take an approach of discussing the concepts in the language and context of the business users. This is more of a written narrative for the ontology versus the formal. Yes, the formal is there but it comes after the narrative. This seems to help, but ultimately the logic makes the business users' "heads explode". :-) [8:09] AndreaWesterinen: Then, the last piece is to prove that the logic is correct - which is proven by use and example. [8:10] MichaelGruninger: Again, what Krzysztof calls a "network of micro-ontologies" is the focus of ontology repository projects like COLORE and projects like OntoIOp (which focus on alignment and translation techniques). [8:10] PeterYim: == LeoObrst presenting ... [8:11] ElieAbiLahoud: @Andrea, I like "written narrative for the ontology" I use SBVR to do this [8:12] AndreaWesterinen: @Elie Yes, I value SBVR but find that it is too complex. I do use the concepts and approach. However, I tune the narrative to use cases, personas and scenarios. [8:17] MikeBennett: @Andrea / @Elie we've taken a more ambitious approach, which was to come up with diagrams which are free of Semantic Tech terminology, but which can be explained using set theory, which everyone understands. Restrictions were a challenge for this, but I think I've figured out a way of presenting these graphically. Of course in any group of business people, some need diagrams and some need text. All of them need to see formal definitions to back up their understanding of the concepts presented. [8:17] ElieAbiLahoud: @Andrea, I understand and I see the need for that tuning when we have a final application in mind (as opposed to just capture the shared understanding in an Ontology that might be used as a vocabulary only...) [8:19] ElieAbiLahoud: @Mike, looking forward to seeing your new way of graphically presenting restrictions [8:19] AndreaWesterinen: @Mike YES, would love to see the approach. [8:20] PeterYim: == TillMossakowski presenting ... [8:21] Pascal Hitzler1: @Leo: My perspective would be that the patterns are already in the (well-done) ontologies, essentially. Primarily, they need to be exposed as stand-alone patterns. [8:21] AndreaWesterinen: @Elie I always start with the "why" I am developing the ontology (what questions to answer, what domains to understand, etc.). This then motivates the narrative. It is not necessarily a single application but the reasons for developing the ontology. [8:22] PaulBrandt: With respect to bridging the two communities: both have their strength adn weaknesses. Probably the weaknesses of the one will not be complemented by the strengths of the other, in general. Some specific examples, however, definitely can be found. I would suggest to take as leading principle for the SIG, at least initially (low hanging fruit), precisely such an approach in order to gather the first positive results and hence create the SIG's right for existence. [8:23] PaulBrandt: (in response to LeoObrst request 16:48) [8:23] PeterYim: ... on slide#7 now [8:24] anonymous morphed into VeruskaZamborlini [8:24] AndreaWesterinen: Would it make sense to further highlight patterns in some defined ontologies and work to curate and document them? This would provide a repository for industry use. [8:25] MichaelGruninger: @AndreaWesterinen: Yes! [8:26] Pascal Hitzler1: @Andrea: Yes I think this would make sense. One approach would be to take several well-designed ontologies which talk about some central/abstract notion, and start with the intrinsic patterns as input. In a sense, you'll always look at existing ontologies anyway when making a pattern. [8:26] ElieAbiLahoud: Anyone has looked at or collaborated with: http://ontologydesignpatterns.org/ ? [8:26] Pascal Hitzler1: ontologydesignpattern.org is always one of the places to look at when working on patterns. I don't think that too much is happening there recently, though. [8:27] PeterYim: == Q&A and open Discussion ... [8:28] AndreaWesterinen: Regarding the design patterns site, yes, I have looked and it is a bit scattered. [8:29] PeterYim: ref. slide#4 of the intro deck - http://iaoa.cim3.net/file/pub/SIG/SemanticWeb-AppliedOntology/2013-11-25_SWAO-launch/IAOA-SWAO-SIG_inaugural-session_intro--LeoObrst_20131125.pdf Topics for Discussion Today 1)A short description of the IAOA Semantic Web Applied Ontology special interest group, and a brief charter 2)How will this SIG support communication and collaboration with our colleagues in the Semantic Web (and Linked Data) community? Some of us are members of both communities What activities should we promote? 3)How should we structure this SIG? How often should we meet? 4)Who is interested in co-chairing this SIG? As with all IAOA SIGs and Committees, leadership is highly valued; does require some time commitment, though this should not be onerous [8:29] Pascal Hitzler1: Also, the presentation is sometimes not very helpful on the site. Many good ideas to find there, though. [8:30] ElieAbiLahoud: It would be interesting to get this SIG's feedback on http://ontologydesignpatterns.org/, a possible item in upcoming activities? [8:30] ElieAbiLahoud: @Pascal, Andrea, THX [8:32] PeterYim: @Leo - it would be nice to adopt a "Mission Statement" for the SIG, and then identify a few champions to drive this effort forward [8:34] TorstenHahmann: Maybe we should use the activities in preparation of the Ontology Summit to develop core areas of interests for the SIG and, eventually, a shared mission [8:34] MikeBennett: I think there was a clear focus on the presentations which should translate OK to a mission statement. [8:37] Krzysztof Janowicz: Andrea: to a certain degree this is exactly what http://ontologydesignpatterns.org/ did for DOLCE (and other ontologies) [8:38] Krzysztof Janowicz: IMHO, the key here is community involvement (also beyond AO and SW) [8:38] AndreaWesterinen: The "applied" ontologies that I mentioned are IRING (based on ISO 15926) and FIBO. It might be valuable to mine these for patterns. Other ontologies that I have used/reused are the W3C Time and Provenance ontologies. [8:39] AndreaWesterinen: @Krzysztof Agreed. [8:40] Pascal Hitzler1: yes community involvement (in particular: different types of stakeholders) helps to make versatile patterns. [8:40] AndreaWesterinen: @Mike I have also reused the higher level FIBO concepts. [8:42] Pascal Hitzler1 morphed into Pascal Hitzler [8:42] AndreaWesterinen: @Mike Exactly as you just discussed. [8:43] MikeBennett: @Andrea that's great, I'd love to know more about which and when, and what issues you might have had in consuming this information and getting value out of it. [8:46] Pascal Hitzler: @Fabian: yes, patterns for organizing an ontology. However the key challenge is to deal with semantic heterogeneity - how to do ontological modeling such that we can enable reuse without forcing specific ontological committments. [8:46] MichaelGruninger: IAOA membership information can be found at: http://iaoa.org/membership/membership.html [8:48] Joanne Luciano: Arriving late and leaving early... we are celebrating two PhD defenses Dr. Alvaro Graves Fuenzalida and Dr. Xian Li who successfully defended their PhD thesis. Looking forward re: catching up on this topic. [8:48] PeterYim: I strongly suggest we try to identify a few (5?) people passionate enough to commit themselves to moving this SIG forward in the next few minutes ... past then, please identify the logistics on where can the community continue to discuss this (i.e. moving the SIG forward) [8:48] Krzysztof Janowicz: IMHO, this is not about KR languages but about modeling traditions and goals [8:49] MikeBennett: I'm passionate about the stuff I was talking about but I appreciate there are a lot of other issues on the table. [8:50] MichaelGruninger: @Fabian: we can discuss general ontology issues in this SIG -- the idea here is that the issues are motivated by those which arise and have impact in the Semantic Web [8:50] TorstenHahmann: @Fabian, Pascal: I think focusing on general challenges such as dealing with semantic heterogeneity seems more appropriate for the SIG. The focus on ontology patterns seems a bit redundant because interdisciplinary work is already well underway. Generally, I feel we should focus on long-term challenges that neither community can address alone. That would really leverage the cooperation between the communities. [8:50] AndreaWesterinen: @Pascal My reuse rarely takes full ontologies and uses them wholesale. I do take pieces and concepts and reuse them, combine them together to solve my domain issues. [8:51] AndreaWesterinen: Kind of like combining different tools or open-source pieces. [8:51] LeoObrst: @all: perhaps as mission statement, aspects of my initial slide 2, i.e., Purpose and Description? [8:52] TorstenHahmann: @Leo: your slide 2 seems very appropriate for a mission statement [8:52] Pascal Hitzler: @Krzysztof: yes. In fact, the specific KR languages are imo rather secondary. [8:52] Krzysztof Janowicz: yes [8:53] Pascal Hitzler: @Andrea: yes I believe that's often done. It would be easier, imo, if we had explicit patterns :) [8:53] FabianNeuhaus: @Pascal, Andrea: thank you, I understand now better what you mean. I think was just puzzled since I have been working an similar subjects (e.g., contexts where different languages are used, semantic heterogeneity, the modular design of ontologies) without thinking them as particular problems of the semantic web, but rather general problems of ontology development [8:55] AndreaWesterinen: @Pascal Agreed. I often wondered if I missed something in my reuse, that I could have learned from. [8:56] FabianNeuhaus: @Pascal, Andrea, Michael G: But as Michael said: the SIG should work on issues that are motivated by challenges from the semantic web, even if they are not specific just to the SW. [8:59] NancyWiegand: Since this year's summit is on this topic, then the short term goals would be to facilitate that discussion. [9:00] AndreaWesterinen: I would be happy to volunteer (and am an IAOA member). [9:00] MikeBennett: I would be happy to participate. [9:00] MikeBennett: (and intend to join the IAOA anyway) [9:00] Krzysztof Janowicz: Thanks Peter [9:01] PeterYim: Join us again, next week (Thu 2013-12-05) for the OntologySummit2014 Pre-Launch Community Session, when we will collaboratively work up a program for the next OntologySummit (which is slated to launch on Thu 2014.01.16) [9:02] Krzysztof Janowicz: let's keep this inclusive and not dive too early in making this an IAOA thing only. [9:03] Pascal Hitzler: +1 [9:03] PeterYim: LeoObrst: proposing (tentative) Mission Statement of the IAOA SWAO SIG as a paraphrasing of what's on slide#2 of the intro deck - http://iaoa.cim3.net/file/pub/SIG/SemanticWeb-AppliedOntology/2013-11-25_SWAO-launch/IAOA-SWAO-SIG_inaugural-session_intro--LeoObrst_20131125.pdf [9:03] ElieAbiLahoud: I am happy to contribute/ participate in any needed capacity [9:04] PaulBrandt: Maybe a SW top player as chait of the SIG in order to keep it inclusive, explicitly [9:04] Krzysztof Janowicz: Thanks Peter, Leo, Michael for organizing [9:04] Pascal Hitzler: thanks a lot! [9:05] AndreaWesterinen: Yes, thanks for organizing and the presentations! [9:05] FrancescaQuattri1: great talks, thanks! [9:05] PeterYim: -- session adjourned: 9:05am PST -- [9:05] PaulBrandt: Thank you and ByeBye [9:05] LeoObrst: Thanks all! [9:06] List of attendees: Agnieszka Lawrynowicz, AgnieszkaLawrynowicz, AleksandraSojic, AndreaWesterinen, AnnRacuyaRobbins, BruceBray, ChristopherSpottiswoode, DaliaVaranka, DennisPierson, ElieAbiLahoud, FabianNeuhaus, FrancescaQuattri, FrancescaQuattri1, FrankLoebe, Gary Gannon, Harold Boley, HensonGraves, Joanne Luciano, Jonathan Bona, JonathanBona, Kathy Ellis, Krzysztof Janowicz, LeoObrst, LeoraMorgenstern, MichaelGruninger, MikeBennett, NaicongLi, NancyWiegand, OliverKutz, OnnoPaap, OrisFriesen, OrisFriesen1, Pascal Hitzler, Pascal Hitzler1, PatriceSeyed, PaulBrandt, PeterYim, StefanoBorgo, StefanoBorgo1, StefanoBorgo2, StefanoBorgo3, StefanoBorgo4, StefanoBorgo5, StefanoBorgo6, TaraAthan, TillMossakowski, Todd Pehle, ToddSchneider, Tomasz Adamusiak, TorstenHahmann, VeruskaZamborlini, anonymous, anonymous1, anonymous2, dennis wisnosky, lamarhenderson, lamarhenderson1, vnc2 [9:12] PeterYim: volunteered champions (so far): LeoObrst, AndreaWesterinen, MikeBennett, ElieAbiLahoud, KrzysztofJanowicz (invited), PascalHitzler (invited), ... ------